# Ordering Request: Reverse Relative Overdueness **URL:** \ **Category:** Suggestions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2024, 8:10pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051 "2024-09-28T20:10:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rich70521](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/rich70521/32/1710_2.png) [@rich70521](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/rich70521)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2024, 11:31pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/86 "2024-09-28T23:31:39Z")
[https://github.com/open-spaced-repetition/review-sort-order-comparison/blob/main/notebook.ipynb](https://github.com/open-spaced-repetition/review-sort-order-comparison/blob/main/notebook.ipynb) ![cost-per-day](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/uploads/anki2/original/3X/0/6/060c43d93171883d8cae27134a17f3431b23b44f.png) ![retention-per-day](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/uploads/anki2/original/3X/1/4/14f1d7b95747a00801dc1f95007b945320609cbd.png) ---
**Author:** ![rich70521](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/rich70521/32/1710_2.png) [@rich70521](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/rich70521)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2024, 11:33pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/87 "2024-09-28T23:33:53Z")
Hard to see much differentiation in the Cost per Day graph, but in the Retention per Day graph you can see `retrievability_desc` hovering above the rest. `difficulty_asc` looks much more unstable on that graph. ---
**Author:** ![rich70521](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/rich70521/32/1710_2.png) [@rich70521](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/rich70521)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2024, 11:36pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/88 "2024-09-28T23:36:48Z")
Biggest takeaway for me though, the current “Relative Overdueness”, which is basically `retrievability_asc` is terrible, even compared to some of the more arbitrary seeming like `add_order_desc` ---
**Author:** ![Expertium](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/expertium/32/24176_2.png) [@Expertium](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Expertium)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 11:42am UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/89 "2024-09-29T11:42:00Z")
> LMSherlock updated the graphs to include sorting by stability ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/uploads/anki2/original/3X/1/9/1980e6aa47dd6f42288223511296985d07ffed3a.png) ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/uploads/anki2/original/3X/a/c/acb59869a4589bf42a5a2a1e0da30d12f3a4f1e7.png) ---
**Author:** ![sorata](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/sorata/32/34115_2.png) [@sorata](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/sorata)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 12:05pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/90 "2024-09-29T12:05:23Z")
You want to maximise knowledge though, or more like knowledge acquisition rate. I haven’t read that link. ---
**Author:** ![sorata](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/sorata/32/34115_2.png) [@sorata](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/sorata)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 12:08pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/91 "2024-09-29T12:08:05Z")
Can we make one properly written post in a different topic? This one has 90 replies. Most of which is casual rant. ---
**Author:** ![Expertium](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/expertium/32/24176_2.png) [@Expertium](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Expertium)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 12:11pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/92 "2024-09-29T12:11:35Z")
> [@Improving sort orders](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/improving-sort-orders/50081): > > @dae this post is meant to be a clean version of [this](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051). First of all, right now there are way too many different sort orders: [image] Even for an advanced user, this is unnecessary. For a newcomer, this is absolutely overwhelming. Thankfully, we don’t have to guess which ones are better, because Jarrett already figured that out via simulations: [review-sort-order-comparison/notebook.ipynb at main · open-spaced-repetition/review-sort-order-comparison · GitHub](https://github.com/open-spaced-repetition/review-sort-order-comparison/blob/main/notebook.ipynb) PRL is Potential Retri… ---
**Author:** ![sorata](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/sorata/32/34115_2.png) [@sorata](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/sorata)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 12:24pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/93 "2024-09-29T12:24:03Z")
That “don’t comment here” sounds a bit rude but I get what you’re trying to say, just that the way you did was too… ykwim. ---
**Author:** ![sorata](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/sorata/32/34115_2.png) [@sorata](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/sorata)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 12:29pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/94 "2024-09-29T12:29:07Z")
Can you also mention that we can possibly cut some fat in new card sort order too? Especially, with the two different Random orders (Random cards; Card type, then random). The later helps keep siblings distant from each other but we can possibly do the same in one single “Shuffle” order. ---
**Author:** ![vaibhav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c68b51/32.png) [@vaibhav](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/vaibhav)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 12:29pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/95 "2024-09-29T12:29:47Z")
> If the user can do literally any number of reviews per day, the order doesn’t matter. This argument is flawed because it doesn’t consider many of the other factors that affect learning. For example, a Random sort order is beneficial because it leads to better memorization. Several studies have shown that interleaving improves learning. (Also see [Practicing problems over sessions that are spaced increases learning | Open Learning](https://openlearning.mit.edu/mit-faculty/research-based-learning-findings/spaced-and-interleaved-practice)) ---
**Author:** ![sorata](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/sorata/32/34115_2.png) [@sorata](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/sorata)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 12:34pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/96 "2024-09-29T12:34:51Z")
I agree but with review cards we are already doing “randomisation” with Fuzz. But even without it, reviews should be properly interleaved with most sort orders (maybe except order added/latest first). Here, you are assuming that the Random sort order is somehow producing more interleaving between topics than other sort orders. Sure, for new cards it may. But I don’t expect the same for review cards. ---
**Author:** ![vaibhav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c68b51/32.png) [@vaibhav](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/vaibhav)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 12:39pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/97 "2024-09-29T12:39:57Z")
The following suggestion by @Keks makes the most sense to me. > [@Review by Due Date, then Order of Creation](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/review-by-due-date-then-order-of-creation/49785/15): > > There are so many sorts that it’s time to introduce a custom sorting. Where the user could select the first sort of its direction as well as the second sort and its direction or the absence of the second sort. We should have a few pre-configured sort order and then a “Custom” option that allows the user to use a custom-made sort order depending on their needs. ---
**Author:** ![vaibhav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c68b51/32.png) [@vaibhav](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/vaibhav)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 12:42pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/98 "2024-09-29T12:42:20Z")
> [@sorata](#): > > reviews should be properly interleaved with most sort orders But, why should I take chances when it is easy to just add the Random option? Also, cards added recently will likely have smaller intervals/stabilities than cards added months/years ago. So, a sort order based on interval/stability will not interleave older and newer cards. ---
**Author:** ![Keks](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/keks/32/20537_2.png) [@Keks](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Keks)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 12:56pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/99 "2024-09-29T12:56:25Z")
The cards are sorted by the first sorting, if the cards claim the same place, then the sorting takes place according to the second sorting (it doesn’t always make sense). The direction is also important. Give experienced users the opportunity to choose the first sort, the second sort , the direction of the first sort, the direction of the second sort. Then you will be able to satisfy any desires. Then, instead of the whole zoo of sorts, you can leave a few recommended ones and a custom one. When selecting a custom one, advanced settings would appear. A simple option is to simply combine all the non-recommended sorts into one group that. ---
**Author:** ![Expertium](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/expertium/32/24176_2.png) [@Expertium](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Expertium)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 1:19pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/100 "2024-09-29T13:19:48Z")
It’s not beginner-friendly. We need pre-defined sort orders ---
**Author:** ![Keks](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/keks/32/20537_2.png) [@Keks](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Keks)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 1:22pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/101 "2024-09-29T13:22:05Z")
If for the sake of a little convenience for beginners it is necessary to remove a lot of useful sorting, then it is not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Expertium](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/expertium/32/24176_2.png) [@Expertium](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Expertium)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 1:22pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/102 "2024-09-29T13:22:44Z")
Ok, I added this to my other post: > If you really want to keep all this zoo of sort orders, you can add “Custom” that opens a new window where the user decides the metric as well as the order (ascending/descending). So there would be 3-4 pre-defined orders and “Custom”. ---
**Author:** ![DerIshmaelite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/derishmaelite/32/17983_2.png) [@DerIshmaelite](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/DerIshmaelite)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 1:57pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/103 "2024-09-29T13:57:10Z")
I have seen your tables and can’t help but get confused. In your first table, it appears that Difficulty Ascending is the best option. In your other one, it appears that the ability of sorting by Retrievability Descending to maintain retention is conclusive, whereas Difficulty Ascending is noisy. Is Retrievability Desending really the better option ❓ ---
**Author:** ![Expertium](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/expertium/32/24176_2.png) [@Expertium](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Expertium)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 2:04pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/104 "2024-09-29T14:04:03Z")
![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/uploads/anki2/original/3X/a/c/acb59869a4589bf42a5a2a1e0da30d12f3a4f1e7.png) This is hard to read, but yes, Retrievability Descending is much less noisy than either of difficulty sorts ---
**Author:** ![rich70521](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/rich70521/32/1710_2.png) [@rich70521](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/rich70521)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 2:11pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/105 "2024-09-29T14:11:42Z")
> [@DerIshmaelite](#): > > Is Retrievability Desending really the better option ❓ Even in the tables, Retrievability Descending beats everything by having the least total time spent studying. I think a better simulation would be to run it for a set time instead of a set number of cards. Then, judge by how many cards are learned over that set time. [Previous page](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051.md?page=6)