# Ordering Request: Reverse Relative Overdueness **URL:** \ **Category:** Suggestions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2024, 8:10pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051 "2024-09-28T20:10:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![sorata](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/sorata/32/34115_2.png) [@sorata](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/sorata)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 7:22pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/491 "2024-10-16T19:22:09Z")
No one needs to understand it. We’ll name it default. No explanation. And maybe it will create the path for a “Custom” sort order too. I mean there will be “Default” and there will be “Custom”. ---
**Author:** ![Keks](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/keks/32/20537_2.png) [@Keks](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Keks)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 7:43pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/492 "2024-10-16T19:43:41Z")
> [@sorata](#): > > Relation of S with R The further the card is in the backlog, the more this connection is visible and vice versa. > [@sorata](#): > > Relation of S with D Not necessarily. The card may have more than D only because this is an old card and it has already failed a couple of times. The earlier the card was entered, the more S it will have. But this may not happen with D. R: If you have a large Backlog, then the cards that you constantly fail will still be selected first, since R will always be higher than those of those who have been overdue for some time. S: Does not take into account how long the card is in the backlog. D: The same disadvantages as S, but it can also work completely differently in different presets. Not always a high D value is bad (old cards) and not always a low D value (young cards) is good. I hope Relative overdueness is not going anywhere. Useful sorting for filtered decks if you are doing reviews for future dates. ---
**Author:** ![Expertium](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/expertium/32/24176_2.png) [@Expertium](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Expertium)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 12:51pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/493 "2024-10-17T12:51:53Z")
So, turns out PSG cannot maintain desired retention at the specified level. I don’t think we should continue this. I will tell Dae to just implement reverse relative overdueness. P.S. I know sorata will disagree and say that we should try more sort orders. I will not be doing that. ---
**Author:** ![sorata](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/sorata/32/34115_2.png) [@sorata](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/sorata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 3:59pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/494 "2024-10-17T15:59:30Z")
I’ve come to realise that it’s necessary for us to look at the distribution of R. ---
**Author:** ![rich70521](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/rich70521/32/1710_2.png) [@rich70521](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/rich70521)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 7:57pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/495 "2024-10-17T19:57:11Z")
What do you mean? ---
**Author:** ![sorata](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/sorata/32/34115_2.png) [@sorata](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/sorata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/496 "2024-10-17T20:23:25Z")
I think you’re right in that how the cards’ R is distributed matters as much as total\_learned. You can have retrieval failures for learned stuff too. But that fail is worse than failing to remember something never learned. ---
**Author:** ![DerIshmaelite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/derishmaelite/32/17983_2.png) [@DerIshmaelite](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/DerIshmaelite)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2024, 9:52am UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/497 "2024-10-21T09:52:34Z")
Hey, a bit irrelevant to the discussion but I wanted to point out the missing Sort Orders (e.g. Difficulty Ascending) in Filtered Decks. It would be great to add the new ones there as well ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/uploads/anki2/original/3X/9/0/903cbfc4ba5de673254b729b4f16b56d679630aa.png) ---
**Author:** ![Aleksej](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7c8e57/32.png) [@Aleksej](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Aleksej)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 12:37am UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/498 "2024-10-29T00:37:08Z")
I created a tree of filtered decks that collect the easiest or the most retrievable due cards, more from the high-priority decks than from the low-priority ones. Complex, but it’s to use the Random sort order… and similar cards still appear close to each other because they have similar difficulty. ---
**Author:** ![DerIshmaelite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/derishmaelite/32/17983_2.png) [@DerIshmaelite](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/DerIshmaelite)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 4:37pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/499 "2024-11-08T16:37:24Z")
Would apply Retrievability Descending to cards in their learning phase after their introduction be of much use ❓ I don’t know how their sorting work at this current moment > [@Anki 24.10 Release candidate](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/anki-24-10-release-candidate/51191/85): > > 24.11rc1 (=24.10rc3) is now available. If no major issues are not found, it’s likely to become the stable release within a week, and minor issues can be addressed in a follow-up. I’ll circle back to the recent comments when I have chance. ---
**Author:** ![Expertium](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/expertium/32/24176_2.png) [@Expertium](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Expertium)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 4:53pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/500 "2024-11-08T16:53:14Z")
No, if a card is “red”, it’s R is always 100% ---
**Author:** ![DerIshmaelite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/derishmaelite/32/17983_2.png) [@DerIshmaelite](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/DerIshmaelite)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 5:01pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/501 "2024-11-08T17:01:50Z")
Ooohh…so that brings us to the other topic about making R change in real time. This makes more sense now. I suppose R values changing in real time would require a lot of processing power. Is it even doable in the first place, provided that Sherlock find a provisionary model for short-term memory, so that this order could apply to learning cards as well ❓ ---
**Author:** ![Expertium](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/expertium/32/24176_2.png) [@Expertium](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Expertium)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 5:03pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/502 "2024-11-08T17:03:07Z")
The forgetting curve in Card Info shows a “real-time” curve, with increments much smaller than one day. The problem is that the scheduling code can only deal with days (whole numbers). ---
**Author:** ![DerIshmaelite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/derishmaelite/32/17983_2.png) [@DerIshmaelite](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/DerIshmaelite)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 5:04pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/503 "2024-11-08T17:04:47Z")
Perhaps if we could prove that a code change is worth it for overall learning efficacy, maybe it is worth the effort after all ❓ That is if dae agrees, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Expertium](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/expertium/32/24176_2.png) [@Expertium](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Expertium)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 5:05pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/504 "2024-11-08T17:05:47Z")
Good luck convincing Dae Also ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/uploads/anki2/original/3X/f/a/faa85439d6101cd4451cdffa714a4253856f91ff.png) ---
**Author:** ![DerIshmaelite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/derishmaelite/32/17983_2.png) [@DerIshmaelite](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/DerIshmaelite)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 5:09pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/505 "2024-11-08T17:09:06Z")
Do you mean this ❓ What is the purpose of this ❓ > [@Suggestion about the learning steps after analyzing the Anki Dataset](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/suggestion-about-the-learning-steps-after-analyzing-the-anki-dataset/51648/21): > > Fine. I developed an experimental feature in the FSRS helper add-on: The "1": 48 means your stability of new card which you rated again firstly is 48 seconds. Feedback is welcome: * * * > Good luck convincing Dae Perhaps if this causes a significant effect during learning, perhaps he may be convinced by it. ---
**Author:** ![sorata](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/sorata/32/34115_2.png) [@sorata](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/sorata)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 5:55pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/506 "2024-11-08T17:55:53Z")
> [@DerIshmaelite](#): > > Perhaps if this causes a significant effect during learning, perhaps he may be convinced by it. But does it really influence learning that much? ---
**Author:** ![DerIshmaelite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/derishmaelite/32/17983_2.png) [@DerIshmaelite](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/DerIshmaelite)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2024, 5:56pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/507 "2024-11-08T17:56:16Z")
That is the question. We dont have a sim. We need a sim. * * * By the way I think that any improvements in FSRS from now on would be marginal unless something groundbreaking occurs. So I am of the opinion that if there is an improvement that can be made and the resources are available, we should do it. ---
**Author:** ![vaibhav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c68b51/32.png) [@vaibhav](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/vaibhav)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 11:17am UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/508 "2025-01-20T11:17:27Z")
I did some experimentation in Excel and wanted to share my results. Let’s say that the stability and days elapsed of currently due cards are as follows: | Stability | Elapsed Days | R | PRL | | --- | --- | --- | --- | | 1 | 2 | 0.825 | 0.05890 | | 1 | 3 | 0.766 | 0.04785 | | 1 | 50 | 0.280 | 0.00255 | | 1 | 100 | 0.202 | 0.00096 | | 5 | 5 | 0.900 | 0.01663 | | 5 | 8 | 0.853 | 0.01418 | | 5 | 50 | 0.547 | 0.00379 | | 5 | 100 | 0.419 | 0.00172 | | 50 | 52 | 0.897 | 0.00169 | | 50 | 100 | 0.825 | 0.00131 | | 50 | 160 | 0.756 | 0.00101 | | 100 | 100 | 0.900 | 0.00085 | | 100 | 150 | 0.860 | 0.00075 | | 100 | 200 | 0.825 | 0.00066 | If we sort by descending R, they are shown in the following order: | Stability | Elapsed Days | R | PRL | | --- | --- | --- | --- | | 5 | 5 | 0.900 | 0.01663 | | 100 | 100 | 0.900 | 0.00085 | | 50 | 52 | 0.897 | 0.00169 | | 100 | 150 | 0.860 | 0.00075 | | 5 | 8 | 0.853 | 0.01418 | | 1 | 2 | 0.825 | 0.05890 | | 50 | 100 | 0.825 | 0.00131 | | 100 | 200 | 0.825 | 0.00066 | | 1 | 3 | 0.766 | 0.04785 | | 50 | 160 | 0.756 | 0.00101 | | 5 | 50 | 0.547 | 0.00379 | | 5 | 100 | 0.419 | 0.00172 | | 1 | 50 | 0.280 | 0.00255 | | 1 | 100 | 0.202 | 0.00096 | @Expertium, here, a card with S = 1 which was due yesterday (elapsed = 2) has a very low priority. (Please remember that I may have hundreds of cards with S and elapsed days similar to the cards above this particular card.) Do you really think that this card should have such a low priority? I don’t think so and that’s why I have used ascending R (relative overdueness) for long. Ascending R sort order is problematic if you have some cards that are highly overdue (read the above table from bottom to top), but I usually don’t have such cards so it’s not that problematic for me. Now, let’s see what happens when we sort by descending PRL. | Stability | Elapsed Days | R | PRL | | --- | --- | --- | --- | | 1 | 2 | 0.825 | 0.05890 | | 1 | 3 | 0.766 | 0.04785 | | 5 | 5 | 0.900 | 0.01663 | | 5 | 8 | 0.853 | 0.01418 | | 5 | 50 | 0.547 | 0.00379 | | 1 | 50 | 0.280 | 0.00255 | | 5 | 100 | 0.419 | 0.00172 | | 50 | 52 | 0.897 | 0.00169 | | 50 | 100 | 0.825 | 0.00131 | | 50 | 160 | 0.756 | 0.00101 | | 1 | 100 | 0.202 | 0.00096 | | 100 | 100 | 0.900 | 0.00085 | | 100 | 150 | 0.860 | 0.00075 | | 100 | 200 | 0.825 | 0.00066 | Here, the initial part of the queue makes much more sense. However, there are some problems. (1,50) is before (50,52) but I believe that one should review a card with 50-day interval that is just 2 days overdue before a card with 1-day interval that is 49 days overdue. Similarly, (1,100) is before (100,100), which just doesn’t make sense. So, I believe that none of descending R, ascending R and descending PRL is perfect. We should try to find out something that combines the best properties of each. Finding a completely new parameter may not be necessary. We can make a rule something like descending PRL but if R \< 0.5, then descending R. This example rule is just intended to suggest that we can combine two sort orders into one. I have not tested what results it would produce. ---
**Author:** ![Expertium](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex002/user_avatar/forums.ankiweb.net/expertium/32/24176_2.png) [@Expertium](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/Expertium)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 12:02pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/509 "2025-01-20T12:02:43Z")
Interesting. I don’t think that switching to a different order for some cards is a good idea though, as it could cause some weird bugs and it makes it harder to analyze how this sort order behaves. But out of curiosity @L.M.Sherlock I’d like you to simulate vaibhav’s idea of switching between PRL and descending R. ---
**Author:** ![vaibhav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c68b51/32.png) [@vaibhav](https://forums.ankiweb.net/u/vaibhav)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 1:38pm UTC](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051/510 "2025-01-20T13:38:48Z")
It seems that I have got the perfect sort order (descending PRL + 0.1\*R). | Stability | Elapsed Days | R | PRL | PRL + 0.1 \* R | | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | | 1 | 2 | 0.825 | 0.05890 | 0.1414 | | 1 | 3 | 0.766 | 0.04785 | 0.1245 | | 5 | 5 | 0.900 | 0.01663 | 0.1066 | | 5 | 8 | 0.853 | 0.01418 | 0.0995 | | 50 | 52 | 0.897 | 0.00169 | 0.0913 | | 100 | 100 | 0.900 | 0.00085 | 0.0909 | | 100 | 150 | 0.860 | 0.00075 | 0.0868 | | 50 | 100 | 0.825 | 0.00131 | 0.0838 | | 100 | 200 | 0.825 | 0.00066 | 0.0832 | | 50 | 160 | 0.756 | 0.00101 | 0.0766 | | 5 | 50 | 0.547 | 0.00379 | 0.0585 | | 5 | 100 | 0.419 | 0.00172 | 0.0436 | | 1 | 50 | 0.280 | 0.00255 | 0.0306 | | 1 | 100 | 0.202 | 0.00096 | 0.0212 | Experimentation with some more datapoints may be necessary to ensure that this doesn’t behave weirdly. Based on the results, you can adjust the “0.1” weight or try a different weighing formula to produce the best “score”. I added some more datapoints. It still looks good to me. | Stability | Elapsed Days | R | PRL | PRL + 0.1 \* R | | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | | 1 | 2 | 0.825 | 0.05890 | 0.1414 | | 1 | 3 | 0.766 | 0.04785 | 0.1245 | | 5 | 5 | 0.900 | 0.01663 | 0.1066 | | 5 | 8 | 0.853 | 0.01418 | 0.0995 | | 20 | 20 | 0.900 | 0.00424 | 0.0942 | | 50 | 52 | 0.897 | 0.00169 | 0.0913 | | 100 | 100 | 0.900 | 0.00085 | 0.0909 | | 100 | 150 | 0.860 | 0.00075 | 0.0868 | | 50 | 100 | 0.825 | 0.00131 | 0.0838 | | 100 | 200 | 0.825 | 0.00066 | 0.0832 | | 20 | 50 | 0.794 | 0.00292 | 0.0823 | | 50 | 160 | 0.756 | 0.00101 | 0.0766 | | 20 | 100 | 0.678 | 0.00182 | 0.0697 | | 20 | 150 | 0.602 | 0.00128 | 0.0615 | | 5 | 50 | 0.547 | 0.00379 | 0.0585 | | 5 | 100 | 0.419 | 0.00172 | 0.0436 | | 5 | 150 | 0.353 | 0.00103 | 0.0363 | | 1 | 50 | 0.280 | 0.00255 | 0.0306 | | 1 | 100 | 0.202 | 0.00096 | 0.0212 | [Previous page](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051.md?page=24) [Next page](https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ordering-request-reverse-relative-overdueness/50051.md?page=26)